![]() With Ray using sodium amytal on his victims, not only did they have to go through everything he physically put them through, they could never be sure if their memories of it were real. With Ray (and Debardeleben), victims were sometimes released. If you keep that in the back of your mind, you can almost comfort yourself with it. BUT, you also know that Shirley Ledford's suffering eventually ends. ![]() You are well aware that you're listening to a snuff tape, there's no two ways about it. If we're talking SKs with tapes or who taped their crimes, I have to go with neither of those- I'm with Mike Debardeleben all the way.īUT, between those two choices, I'm going with David Parker Ray, for one of the same reasons I would go with Debardeleben above all: The Toolbox tape is utterly horrific. I can't remember if they give her name and/or interview her, or if she's just discussed without her name being revealed. She was finally able to remember more and more details of her ordeal under questioning. There's something in Toy Box: Where the Evil Lurks, an MSNBC documentary, about another woman who thought the memories of her torture were just nightmares until she was contacted by the FBI. They interview her on the Cold Case Files episode about Ray. She was treated for her injury, but neither her husband nor the police believed her story, and her husband thought she had been out cheating on him and divorced her. Eventually, Ray noticed her breathing and slashed her throat open and dumped her on the side of the road near Caballo, thinking she was dead. She was held for 2 days, tortured and drugged, in and out of consciousness. ![]() In addition to drugging her beer, Jessie (or another accomplice or Ray himself or all of the above) coshed her on the back of her head and knocked her unconscious in the parking lot and abducted her. She was drugged at the Blu-Water Saloon in Truth or Consequences, NM by Ray's daughter Jessie after she decided to go play pool for the evening following a fight with her husband. ![]() They were able to identify her by a tattoo on her ankle. The police found one of the victims Ray had on a tape from 1996 (Kelly Garrett, sometimes referred to as Kelly Van Cleve) alive in Colorado. Is it worse to go through that and have to live with it, or go through so much pain and be shortly killed after that? I think both are absolutely brutal, and in both cases, the victims lose their lives. And then in some cases, have all that come back and having to live with it. And then losing those months of your life (because they pumped their victims full of drugs to forget what happened and released them into the world again) which would affect you for the rest of your life. Being kidnapped and tortured for 2-3 days and then killed brutally, or being abducted for months on end, physically and sexually assaulted/tortured knowing you’re not going to remember any of it. In all honesty, I’m not sure what’s worse. I have read in detail about both but have never listened to the tapes from the toolbox killers, but I have read the transcript of the recording the toy box killers would make their victims listen to after they woke up. If you notice a violation in the comments, please report it so we can investigate. Mods reserve the right to interpret rules at their discretion and ‘rules lawyers’ will be ignored and/or muted. If you are unsure if something is appropriate to submit, please send us a modmail. Rule breaking may result in a permanent ban without prior warning. Rule breaking posts or comments may be removed without notice. View All Hide Popular View Bundy Hide Bundy View Dahmer Hide Dahmer View Questions Hide Questions View News Hide News Recommended Reading Posts about figures that don't match the definition (Charles Manson, Jim Jones, hitmen, gangsters, mobsters, soldiers etc.) will be removed. ![]() Spree killers kill two or more in one incident in two or more locations without a cooling-off period.Mass murderers kill two or more people in one incident in one location.Current FBI definition of a serial killer: Two or more separate incidents by the same offender.Serial reposters (three or more items) can be banned. We accept that they are a fact of life, but please make an attempt to avoid them. All link / image posts require a submission comment to start the discussion. If you genuinely believe the users of this sub would be interested, you are welcome to message the mods and we'll review your request. No Self-promotion / Merchandise Links / Murderabilia.Please do not glorify serial killers or otherwise encourage violence. Posts must be about serial killers or the subject of serial murder.If you're new to the sub, please read this post. ![]()
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